Brexit?
As I struggle to understand why we have done such a thing, it’s important to hear an opposing point of view. I respect your opinion, but we are clearly seeing the UK — EU relationship through completely different optics. I might be able to lessen my own incredulity at the situation, if I could understand those who believe in Brexit.
JS: I mentioned in my previous comments, the UK was not part of the Schengen Area, and has control of its borders. It was entirely in the Gov’s remit to apply checks on EU citizens, any failure to do so, would be of its own doing. Presumably they decided that the benefits of allowing hardworking Romanians to help grow our GDP, outweighed the destructive cost of these abhorrent criminal gangs. As with being in the Schengen Area, all EU citizens’ freedom to stay in the UK could be revoked after 3 months, if they couldn’t meet accepted conditions. I’m no immigration officer but I guess similar strategies to prevent Non EU criminals from entering the country, would have applied to EU citizens. By extension of your argument, would you stop all Asian people from entering the UK because of the Triads, or people from the Caribbean because of Yardies? Immigration is a complex beast; aging population, low wage jobs, economical boost, crime, cultural diversity, compassion to asylum seekers. If we look behind the headlines though, whether it is EU or Non EU citizens, we are enriched culturally and financially by immigration.
Please read these accompanying articles and the notations, it will clear up some of the border control misconceptions.
http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/can-the-uk-control-its-borders-if-it-remains-in-the-eu/
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/we-can-control-eu-migration-we-just-havent-done-it/
JS: Your concerns of Romanian Criminal gangs are legitimate and I too condemn their criminality. To characterise EU citizens through one obviously deplorable faction, is a little myopic though. On the whole EU citizens come to work, to contribute to our society, and in doing so they enhance our economy. The well used trope that EU citizens are a burden on UK coffers, is disingenuous.
Please read: https://www.oxfordeconomics.com/recent-releases/8747673d-3b26-439b-9693-0e250df6dbba
It’s sad that the UK Gov has had a mandate to strictly control our borders, yet allowed unchecked access to the nation at a time when a pandemic was coursing across the globe.
I’m a pragmatist and I can see the enormous benefits of sitting at the head table of the worlds largest economic zone, with the ability to collaborate with our neighbours, to provide peace and prosperity for the common good of the region and beyond. It’s a big price to pay to undermine these opportunities, especially at a time when the world is going through such turmoil. An increasingly dominant China, which has an unclear global agenda, and an abhorrent approach to the spirit of humanity. There’s a great deal of uncertainty about their intended progress. The USA is battling to instill stability in a divided society and tries to understand the reasons why Trumpism exists. Throw in Putin’s Russia, which thrives on chaos and division, spearheading cyber attacks at the democratic foundations of its perceived enemies. Let’s not forget the upheaval to world order that climate change may well bring, a threat of mass migration alone is reason for concern, something that would reshape our world.
A dark synopsis of world order I know, but these problems need to be tackled from a place of strength. These difficult challenges have to be countered, and would be better served with collaboration and unity. Diminishing our position of global influence, from a place where we had heightened levels of power, is a chuffing stupid idea.
JS: I”m not sure who said Brexit was a ‘Tory Policy’. It’s fair to say that anti EU factions in the Tory party have long been divisive, which influenced a reluctant Gov, along with the Farage factor, to offer a referendum. You’ll remember that the roots of Brexit were seeded by Farage’s image of immigration, supported by decades of bullshit, spouted out by the xenophobic elements of our media. The EU has been vilified and demonised as a convenient foe. Like immigration it is an easy target to deflect the failings and problems of domestic governance. I know the EU is far from perfect, but it’s portrayal as an evil enemy is unjust.
Please explore the phenomenon that is Euro Myths, an extensive catalogue of misrepresentations of EU laws. Laws that have, in the main been ratified by UK governments, but have been twisted to berate a perceived enemy in Brussels.
Please read: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/media/euromyths.htm
Concocted by the likes of Murdoch, Dacre, Desmond and the Barclay brothers. Proprietors and editors who happily spread their own self serving agendas, with the reward of power and profits. Throw in the likes of Johnson and Farage, and we have a ragtag crew of delinquents, happy to enhance their own personal gain, at seemingly any cost. It’s fair to say that, if The Daily Mail, Express and Sun had stuck to decent honest journalism, it would have been difficult to see Brexit ever happening.
JS: With your question of “How am I worse off….” you unintentionally expose part of the reason we have different views of the EU. To me the EU is a vehicle for peace, which with NATO, has been achieved for the last 76 years. Something that should not be taken for granted. To me the EU is a collaboration of ideas (scientific, educational, humanitarian, innovational….) values, communities and cultures. Working together to create a better place, a better future for all of us. Little do I hear from those who voted to leave, of what is best for the collective majority. Is it not in the interest of all, that we share our principled outlook of a fair and just world? Have we not previously set a standard of moral codes that have been praised worldwide? The ‘British way’ held great value, now our integrity is being undermined by our own foolish acts.
JS: Sorry but your claim that the EU is ‘wholly undemocratic’ is simply not true. It may be a form of democracy that you’re not happy with, but non the less the UK held a representative decomocratic presence within the EU. Members of the European Parliament are democratically elected by EU citizens (May 2019). The EU Council consists of representatives of the member states’ governments, who were democratically elected. And the European Commission’s members are proposed by the member states’ governments and parliaments, and elected by the European Parliament. There are of course opportunities to improve systems and protocol, but is that not also true of our own political system, is the House of Lords democratically elected? Don’t forget we also had the power of veto on some EU laws.
Brexit has been sold to the nation as a sunny upland of opportunity. Behind the headlines, behind the sound bites, behind the lies, behind the slogans, I struggle to find a great deal of solid evidence to support the overall notion, that Brexit will be a screaming success.
Wouldn’t it be stupid to vote for such a monumental event like leaving the EU, without having a solid, viable, bonanza of a plan to unequivocally improve the future of all UK citizens. Leaving on a wing and a prayer, is simply just not good enough. Was there ever a plan and five years on do we really know what Brexit means? Has this Gov ever had a sure fired idea of how to take this nation to the promised lands? A clear plan that everyone can buy into, support and that will actually deliver. Or has it just stumbled through vague notions of an expected successful outcome? Using its slogans to placate the nation.
We are an enormously talented nation, we have so much to offer this twisted world, but we have been blighted by exceptionalism for far too long. Maybe Brexit will be likened to the post war humiliation that exposed both Germany and Japan. Maybe this is a turning point. We continue to reshape our role in the world, searching for a path out from the shadows of Empire. I just don’t see how isolationism is the solution, the world has changed and we need to be honest about the part we play.
I’m not sure if people appreciated the power and control we had as a member of the EU. We held a position of strength, where we made new laws, created standards, and could influence for the better. Outside of the Eurozone, Schengen Area and ERM, along with the membership rebate, we got what we wanted, we had influence. Caught up in the misrepresentation of their perceived enemy, tainted by lurid headlines, leave voters seem to have missed the point of the collaborative advantages that membership offered. Ask the people of Liverpool, about the EU funds that helped to regenerate their city, look at the funds that not only supported some of the UK’s poorest regions, but also helped hundreds of organisations across the nation.
Please take a look: https://www.myeu.uk/
JS: I guess that you are worse off because; you now live in a more fragmented nation. A border down the Irish Sea does nothing to promote unity within the UK.
There is growing concern that Scotland and Wales may well seek independence. Brexit has embolden racial tensions. The Gov continues to operate a hostile environment, with many EU citizens leaving. Hate crimes are on the up. Ceding EU power has lessened the nation’s global influence. You will, more than likely be less well off than if we remained, but more importantly those who have multiple jobs or use food banks to survive, will find life more difficult. Pursuing such a fool hardy act, has garnered global ridicule, damaging our credibility.
Indirectly we are all worse off as we now have a Brexit Gov, led by Johnson, a character of little substance, who only excels at shape shifting and lying.
If you need reminding:
https://boris-johnson-lies.com
A Cabinet filled with Brexit poodles, with such lamentable characters as Raab, Patel, Truss and Mogg, whose lack of political prowess is clear for all to see. A Gov that lurches from crisis to crisis, u-turn to u-turn, at a time when we need leadership of the highest order.
Knowing that the perpetrators of leaving are a ragtag bunch of opportunists, with the likes of Farage, Johnson, Murdoch, Dacre, R. Desmond, who let’s face it, give bigots a bad name. Throw in the fact that Trump, Putin, T. Robinson, Steve Bannon, Alex Jones plus others loathsome individuals, who deal in hate, division and chaos, are big supporters of Brexit. Did it not cross your mind that you might be backing the wrong horse?
JS: The irony of your (and Farage’s) reference to “the world’s our oyster”. As UK shellfish businesses struggle to get their products to market or are contemplating if they have a future. Ironically we live 25 miles away from one of the world’s largest ‘oysters’, that has over the years fashioned us with many large ‘pearls’.
You are right that the EU invokes a form of protectionism, show me a trading zone that doesn’t. It’s probably not as bad as you think though.
https://fullfact.org/europe/out-africa-facts-about-eu-tariffs-african-exports/
Is the UK not, supposedly protecting the best interests of its people? Is Brexit not protectionism? Do NAFTA, AfCFTA and AFTA not do the same? The whole point is that regional countries unite for the good of its members. Providing them with advantages over third nations. We have made ourselves a third nation, so why would the EU not protect its members from competitors? In the EU, we enjoyed the security of membership. In negotiating a hard deal, the Gov has chosen to create barriers and political friction with the world’s largest trading area. We have now isolated ourselves, to swim alone in the choppy waters of international trading, exposing ourselves to some of the bigger fish. Historically, you might have noticed, nations worldwide do most of their trading with their neighbours, it’s common sense. This Gov has put obstacles in the way of what was seamless trading. More qualified people than me, like most economists, suggest this is not a good idea.
JS: You miss the point re. Freedom of Movement. An important aspect of the EU is the close collaboration of its members. I guess you don’t share the same interpretation of our relationship with Europe, when it comes to being a cohesive alliance. The opportunity to live, trade, work and travel on a whim, is an integral part of that relationship. Putting barriers in the way, no matter how small, is detrimental to the whole ethos of community.
Raab predicts that we will see the benefits of Brexit in ten years, when trade with emerging markets will save the day. Good luck to all our small companies who currently seem to be fighting an uphill battle with bureaucracy, challenging their access to the world’s largest economic area on our doorstep. In a world that understands that freeing up trade borders is a benefit, the UK has put up barriers, creating more friction and more red tape. Don’t worry though, we are ‘promised’ a great future in a decade’s time, when all our small companies will be able to ‘freely’ trade with the likes of Chile (7400 miles) or Vietnam (6000 miles). Just pop it in the post.
JS, SB: Sorry but you’ve made a rod for your own back, you both mention £350m or more money for the NHS (Johnson lie). Almost five years on and you bring out that old chestnut. When only a matter of hours after the 2016 referendum, Farage admitted that it was BS. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA3XTYfzd1I&t=72s
There is plenty more Brexit bullshit out there, you just need to look behind the headlines, behind the slogans, behind the mantras. The other day a friend told me he voted to leave, as he was convinced that 60m Turkish citizens were going to come to the UK (another Johnson lie). The likes of Johnson and his cohorts have been peddling this BS for years, they are undoubtedly clever people, and with great precision have been targeting their smart bullshit, but guess what, it’s still bullshit.
In simple terms, not being a member of the EU, the UK will keep nearly £200m/wk (after rebate and EU funding).
ttps://fullfact.org/europe/350-million-week-boris-johnson-statistics-authority-misuse/
In a £2.77 trillion economy, this is pish in the wind, but you’re missing the point, this is more than a membership fee, it’s an investment, one that has helped this nation to prosper. The fees were outweighed by the fiscal advantages that membership provided us. Also supporting EU funds to help our neighbours economies grow, would benefit the UK in the long term, as they become more affluent, they would be able to buy more UK exports.
SB: You put your faith in wonderful trade deals with countries on the other side of the world, that might in ten years (Raab) bring us great dividends. The recent UK trade deal with Japan has at best been described as being marginally better than the one we had through the EU.
As the EU’s GDP is five times that of the UK, do you think, now that we have left, we are in a stronger position to negotiate with larger economies? Do you think the US or China will bend over backwards to put the best interests of UK citizens ahead of their own?
You suggest that the EU causes “slow and inflexible bureaucratic red tape, making it more prohibitive for smaller companies to do business.” Do you have any examples of how putting up trade barriers on 1st January 2021 has improved the situation?
You suggest “Consumer goods EU — VAT contributions…” will cost UK consumers heavily. Beyond UK companies setting up subsidiaries in EU countries, to counter VAT payments, could you throw some light on how consumers are in a more profitable position.
You put great faith in the resurgence of the fishing industry (0.3% GDP). Are there any tell tale signs that the Gov has secured it a golden future?
We’re in the early days of Brexit, but when those who voted for this ‘wonderful deal’ are complaining that it’s terrible, Kate Hoey, D. Davidson. When Raab is passing the buck ten years down the road. When Gove is dictating to the EU to change the deal he wholeheartedly sold to you, no more than 9 wks ago. When Johnson’s lies are being exposed. When red tape isn’t going away, but increasing. When DIT and DEFRA suggest that UK businesses open subsidiaries in the EU. Moving jobs, investment and tax revenues outside of the UK…….
Cheshire Cheese Company Chief executive Simon Spurrell: “We’ve been stabbed in the back by our own incompetent government.” The firm has also scrapped plans to build a new £1m warehouse in Macclesfield and may now end up employing French workers and paying tax in the EU.
…….how much do you feel that you’ve been conned?
Do you feel that the notion of the ‘take back control’ mantra is fully embraced, when the ‘level playing field’ will continue to tie the UK to EU policy?
The trade deal is in the process of being completed. Negotiations for service sectors, which make up over two thirds of UK GDP, are ongoing. We have already lost financial ‘passporting’, creating more regulatory barriers. Amsterdam has surpassed London as Europe’s largest share trading centre. One trillion pounds of assets have already moved to mainland Europe, along with 7500 jobs. It is far from certain that the EU will allocate full ‘equivalence’ to the UK. The City of London will still be a financial powerhouse, time will tell if it can compensate for these obstacles. As it’s the largest UK tax contributor, it’s crucial it does.
Of course we are stuck with Brexit. For the UK to move on, we need to understand why it happened. The hornet’s nest of Brexit has stirred the conscience of UK society. Austerity, immigration, nationalism, hope, misconceptions, lies and bullshit, have all made a contribution to Brexit. Unravelling the truth will be a mighty task. Only then though, can we reunite the nation. We need to use this monumental decision, as an opportunity to reflect on who we really are, warts and all. Do we want to dwell on past glories or take on an integral role, that helps to shape a more progressive world?
Can I reiterate that I know that the EU is far from a perfect institution, but the act of leaving has unleashed at best uncertainty, at worse chaos. At a time when we all need a platform of stability to take on some of the world’s most difficult challenges.
If you’re not persuaded by my thoughts, then maybe this article will shine a little more light on the whole situation:
https://econ.economicshelp.org/2007/03/benefits-of-european-union.html
May I suggest that you ‘up’ your enjoyment of UK oysters, mussels, scallops, cockles and clams, to support our struggling fishermen and women.
The BBC has a good selection of shellfish recipes, take a look: https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/shellfish-recipes
So in a nutshell, much of the leave ethos was based on bullshit, some chose to believe it, now we all have to live with it.
Peace.
